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a polite interview
“Skin So Thin,
It’s Inside Out”
Ethan Persoff talks with Paul Krassner about running The Realist,
hacking The New York Times Bestseller list, and that
“true, extraordinary liar,” Donald Trump.
In the late Fifties, three things radically changed the course
of American comedy: Lenny Bruce, The Second City, and
The Realist. From its first issue in the Spring of 1958, Paul
Krassner’s iconoclastic “journal of freethought and satire”
created a comedic template that is still being followed today; its
mix of fact and intelligent opinion delivered with a mordant,
knowing skepticism, is as current as John Oliver and as
omnipresent as the entire internet. But you don’t hear much
about The Realist these days — it’s the fate of truly seminal
sources to seem inevitable, when in fact they reshaped the
world in their own image.
Fortunately, in 2006 Krassner teamed with archivist/comic
artist Ethan Persoff on The Realist Archive Project (http://
www.ep.tc/realist/), a free online repository of every issue of
the magazine from its 43-year run. They recently collaborated
again on a deluxe coffee table book, The Realist Cartoons,
published by Fantagraphics.
The election of Donald Trump seemed to be a particularly
Krassnerian moment, so I asked Ethan to call Paul and ask
a few leading questions. — MG
ETHAN PERSOFF: Paul, what’s your opinion of Trump?
PAUL KRASSNER: Where to begin? Personally, for me, it goes
back to when George Bush won the presidency in 2000. That
was due to the electoral college, even though Al Gore had won
the popular vote.
That same time, Hillary Clinton was elected Senator. She
announced, publicly, the first thing she was going to do was
get rid of the electoral college.
Years later, I was doing a column for The New York Press,
and I sent Clinton a letter asking her about the status of her
promise. She didn’t reply.
During the campaign, Trump called Clinton a crook —
EP: Right, “Lock her up”.
PK: —he called her a crooked businessperson. But that’s what
he was. Everything he says about anybody is really about him.
He’s a true, extraordinary liar.
EP: What’s your opinion of his “fake news” media scolding?
PK: Another example of projection. He calls the newspapers
dishonest, because he is, in fact, the most dishonest.
Trump became an insanely narcissistic dictator once he
won, bragging about his electoral numbers as proof. But prior
to that, he endlessly insisted the electoral college was a sham.
That, to me, wins the prize for irony.
EP: I have to wonder, what if Clinton had won the electoral
count, but lost the popular vote?
PK: Oh, then he would have said it was rigged.
EP: Lock her up!
PK: When I wrote the letter to her, it was partly because I’d
heard the electoral college was based on slavery.
EP: And there’s gerrymandering, which is also racist.
PK: Yes. You know, the thing with Trump, is there’s talk of
anything from impeachment, assassination, treason ... But
that leads to more irony, because that would leave President
Pence. Pence has just as much an interest in turning evolution
around, and going back to barbaric times, but has the ability
to pass as sane. Trump can’t do that.
EP: Do you think Trump’s madness is an asset to his opposition?
He’s such an easily identifiable lunatic, does that provide for
a sense of protection, as opposed to Pence, who is so much
more canny and quiet?
PK: There’s fear of Trump, and then there’s dictatorship in
action. The things he’s been doing are disgusting -- these appointments!
Like Rick Perry for Dept of Energy. It’s so insane.
And then, Betsy DeVos. No education experience ... I think
even starting in kindergarten. (Laughter)
EP: Yes. Everyone has their own personal thing that they’re
scared about with Trump. Me, it’s the environment. I can’t
believe his appointment of Scott Pruitt with the EPA.
PK: They’re all horrible. Then there’s Michael Flynn. He
is the core of the hypocrisy of the relationship between
Trumpo the Elephant and Putin.
(continued) f
93
EP: What’s your take on Trump and
Russia?
PK: I read one article where an unidentified
Russian official used the phrase
“useful idiot”. That’s really what it is.
It’s like J. Edgar Hoover; he stayed
around for decades [via] blackmail. I
think it’s the same thing. You don’t have
to say it, you know. Hoover would just go
to JFK and say, “We found some photo
of you in bed with Marilyn Monroe. But
don’t you worry, we’ll keep it in our safe.”
EP: You’ve lived through some Red scares;
can you imagine any other time where
this Russia stuff would be forgiven?
PK: I think foreign countries may have
influenced previous elections.
I don’t know, but it was mostly
before the technology of the
Internet. So, if there’s no Internet,
there ain’t no hackin’.
It’s like there ain’t no divorce
if you don’t have no marriage!
Whatever deal was made, or
hacked, I think Trump decided
to run the night of the 2011
Washington Correspondent’s
Dinner. Obama had such
good jokes that night. But the
camera was on Trump, and you
could see that he was foaming.
EP: That shot of him is amazing.
The video of Trump’s boiling
back head. It’s really gorgeous.
PK: Humiliation makes a difference.
You know, years before
any of this, Trump developed
his modus operandi for media/
political success: You cheat.
What pushed him into public profile was
the stated success of his book, The Art of
the Deal. But what I found out that is that
he bought 20,000 copies of his own book
from Random House, and that made it a
New York Times Best Seller.
Similarly, L Ron Hubbard had his book
Dianetics. He had a Scientologist working
at The New York Times who had access
to the details of their best sellers lists.
Back then, there was a list of cities that
the Times measured sales at particular
book stores. So, Hubbard didn’t have to
buy 20,000 copies, he just had his spy tell
him where to buy several copies at those
locations, and the Church of Scientology
had an instant “Best Seller”.
EP: Earlier you mentioned two interesting
words: “assassination” and “impeachment”.
You have the benefit of having
lived through Kennedy and Nixon.
PK: My earliest remembrance of a President
was Franklin D Roosevelt.
EP: Do you remember him on the radio?
PK: Yes. He was famous for having his
Fireside Chats. Which, through these
decades, has evolved into tweets.
EP: Here’s a very pointed question: When
Kennedy got shot — what’s your memory
of that?
PK: Several memories. One was my first
wife was out shopping, heard it on somebody’s
radio, and immediately bought a
TV set. That’s one thing I remember, just
being glued to the television…And I was
getting calls, maybe not that day, but from
Cartoon by Wende, from The Realist #37, Sept. 1962.
people wanting to write an article about
the conspiracy aspect of it. You know of
Jean Shepherd, right?
EP: Of course.
PK: He was a big influence on me. He said,
“This will change the whole country.” He
thought it was a coup. And it turned out
that the CIA had the Mafia do it. After
all of my studying about it, that’s what it
was. The Mafia were the puppets of the
puppeteer in that.
I would listen to Jean Shepherd every
night, and he said — he predicted – that
America would have a dictator who won
the presidency because he came out of
show business. And it happened. You
know, [Trump’s] not like Ronald Reagan,
who came out of Hollywood, of course.
But in Reagan’s case, he couldn’t make
the distinction between reality and his
94
movie roles. But he did say he was willing
to take a senility test! Of course, the suggestion
that he’d take a senility test is a
suggestion that you already are senile.
EP: Right. That’s very funny.
PK: Jumping back to Trump. Along the
same lines of the buying the 20,000
copies of his book, the first day of his
presidential campaign, he came down
the Trump Tower elevator. There were
people with placards, saying “TRUMP
2016” — but they were all hired actors.
Fifty of ‘em.
EP: You know, the success of that red hat
really disturbs me. It’s so idiotic — but it
really seemed to work.
PK: I agree. No other presidential
candidate had a cap like
that. And a slogan. I’ve seen
people on TV asked, “What do
you think about the election?”
One elderly woman said, “Oh
it’s wonderful! We’re going to
Make America Great Again!”
EP: How could they win on a
campaign of awful messages?
Maybe Steve Bannon is some
AD&D wizard, casting a spell
that everything negative
becomes positive. “Trust me
Trump: kick babies instead of
kiss them. It’ll work!”
PK: I agree that’s possible.
But it’s narcissism that made
Trump do this. Narcissism with
skin so thin, it’s inside out.
That’s what he was
doing, too, during the campaign.
If your skin is inside out,
then it’s projecting. Hillary “was a crook,”
but he was. He called Bernie Sanders
“crazy” and he was. “Lyin’ Ted Cruz”...
EP: Why do you think those nicknames
were so effective? It seemed, once you
were labelled by him, you were done.
PK: Bush had his nicknames, but they
were favorable. He called Karl Rove his —
EP: “Turd Blossom”!
PK: Right, “Turd Blossom” ...and he was.
EP: The prettiest turd.
PK: Regarding Trump’s narcissism, here’s
my favorite joke: Trump was in the elevator
of Trump Tower. It stopped on one
floor and a woman got in. She said, “Oh!
You’re Donald Trump! Oh my, I would
love to give you a blow job. I really would.
I have a great reputation. I will make it
that you will never forget this blow job.
I really am good. I practice a lot. And I
want to give you a blow job so much.”
And Trump says, “Yeah, but what’s in
it for me?”
(laughter)
There’s an old saying in psychology.
In order to deceive people, you have
to deceive yourself. Here’s the thing:
Trump has instant belief. He just believes
whatever he says. With Obama’s
birth certificate controversy, he would
believe it, even though he had to know
it wasn’t true. Then, he said he’d hired
investigators to go to Hawaii.
EP: (embarrassed for history) I remember
that.
PK: I think that was a lie, too! I don’t think
he ever sent them. Or, if he did
send them, and they didn’t find
any “evidence,” then he lied by
omission...of facts.
EP: I wonder if these lies are
going to have consequences —
if impeachment will happen.
Getting Congress to do it will
be nearly impossible.
PK: There’s little hints that
the Republicans — their conscience
is gettin ‘em. Those are
my hopes.
EP: The fear I have is we’re going
to lose this country through this
motherfucker. That we’re going
to have a police state – that we
won’t have a free press. Do you
think these are real fears?
PK: Oh, yeah. Well, you know,
a police state has a bad reputation.
I mean, cops love it!
The thing is — ever since I
took a lot of acid — I have become an
over-doer of being optimistic. You can
pick your metaphor, but I think Trump’s
a blessing in disguise.
With these scares, he’s the monster —
The Frankenstein — that we’ve created.
It’s from the country’s dumbing-down
of the media. Especially with the commercials.
You know, when they first had
TV news, they didn’t have commercials.
EP: I’ve been trying to get more into the
habit of watching PBS News Hour. It’s
amazing to have a full hour of commercial-free
news, and not looping news,
like CNN. What’s sad is I find I have to
build up the stamina for it. I actually find
myself wanting commercial breaks. PBS
had less coverage of Trump’s campaign,
too. Probably because there were no ads
to sell.
PK: The epitome of it, regarding coverage
of Trump, was CEO Leslie Moonves, who
said “It may not be good for America, but
it’s damn good for CBS!”
EP: You know, the week Trump won, to
deal with shock, my mind started remembering
things that made me laugh.
One of your stories showed up: The one
when you met Bob Dylan and asked for
his opinion about the Holocaust.
PK: I was at a radio show. And he was
watching in the room. It was me, Abbie
Hoffman, a rabbi, and some others.
During the panel, the Holocaust was
integrated into the dialogue. Dylan was
there watching, sitting in a dark corner in
Cartoon by Mort Gerberg, from The Realist #50, May 1964.
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the back of the room. When the program
was over, he walked up and said to me,
“You didn’t say much.” And I thought
that was funny, because he was such a
minimalist.
Then I held up my fist, like a microphone,
and asked, “So, what do you think
about the Holocaust?” He offered his
minimalistic reply: “I resent it.”
EP: That’s just too good a joke.
PK: I remember that, more than the radio
panel, because it had such an essence
of itself.
EP: That’s the benefit of minimalism,
right? It’s like these insane Trump tweets.
In some way, they’re stronger because
they’re just 140 characters.
PK: By the way, did you see Anderson
Cooper laugh for five minutes when
Kellyanne Conway used the phrase “alternative
facts”? It was such a bizarre
oxymoron, he couldn’t stop laughing.
EP: My favorite one of her’s is the Bowling
Green Massacre. The Internet was hilarious
on that. For the Holocaust, of course,
it’s “Never Forget”; so, for the Bowling
Green Massacre, people were posting
pictures of green bowling balls, with the
phrase “Never Remember”.
PK: Oh, that’s good. It’s like what I was
mentioning about optimism. The answer
is what we saw right after the inauguration,
with the march and the rallies.
Trump is essentially the monster we’ve
created. Whereas Frankenstein was
made from corpses, Trump was made
from fringe subcultures: First
from the white supremacists
... Trump was on the radio
with some insane conspiracy
theorist, and the host said, “My
listeners, they really love you.”
Trump then went to the Evangelists,
‘cause that was another
subculture. He couldn’t think
of anything, the first time, from
the Bible. Next time, though,
he brought a Bible with him.
He was smart enough to take
the cellophane off it.
EP: I think for the most part,
you’ve always been on the
right side of history, actions
you’ve taken and political/
moral positions — everything
from civil rights, to women’s
rights, to drug freedom. But I
don’t know how you decided
to do some of this shit. For
example, you ran an abortion referral
service inside The Realist. No reward
beyond a moral victory.
PK: Back then, when it was illegal, people
thought doctors who performed abortions
should be arrested and convicted.
EP: Let’s discuss the development of your
ethics. What’s your internal compass?
Have you always had these instincts?
PK: It happens organically. I remember
when LOOK Magazine said about abortion,
“There are no humane doctors ...
all of them are just in it for the money.”
And I knew of one: Doctor Spencer in
Ashland, Pennsylvania. He had a reputation.
It turned out, to be, also, that he
was a subscriber.
So, I wrote him a letter, asking for an
interview, because I wanted to point out
that LOOK’s statement was a lie. And I
The Disneyland Memorial Orgy, by Paul Krassner and Wallace Wood, published in the May, 1967 issue of The Realist. Readers
with annoying bare patches on their wall can buy a copy at www.paulkrassner.com for $35.00 plus shipping and handling.
promised him that I would go to prison
sooner than identify him.
EP: Was that a concern of his?
PK: I just volunteered it. So that he would
know. And he allowed me to interview
him, albeit anonymously. 1
When I published the interview, I
started to get calls. Women who were
pregnant that didn’t want to be, and didn’t
know where to go. These were different
ages, different classes. I remember
one that really had the most force to it:
A nurse called. And she couldn’t get a
doctor to help her. From a hospital, or
even privately.
So, I referred her to Dr. Spencer. And
she sent me a gift. She knew I had a little
daughter. And she sent me a doll. A lion.
Holly, my daughter, named it Lenny the
Lion, after Lenny Bruce.
EP: Oh, that’s great.
PK: I began to get more and more calls,
and I couldn’t say no. You know this is
not an abstract placard saying “Peace
Now”, this was somebody that I could
help. I couldn’t say no -- ‘cause there are
so many things going on in the world that
you can’t help.
I never thought I’d become an underground
abortion referral service. But, you
know, it became my calling, in a way.
EP: How long did you continue to help
people out?
PK: I stopped when I moved to San Francisco
[in 1971]. By that time there were
others doing referrals -- Protestant ministers.
So, I left my practice behind me.
EP: The Realist was one of the first, if
not the first, news sources to talk about
Enovid [the first birth control pill].
PK: In the first few issues! And the pill
was just a rumor. This guy, a journalist
-- I didn’t pay him much – he did a twopart
article, I think I paid him $100 for
each. He went to Puerto Rico, where they
were testing women. I had mixed feelings
about this, because they were testing
them like guinea pigs. But it worked, and
it became known as “the Pill.”
EP: Since we’re referring to a lot of
issues of The Realist, we should probably
mention the online archive. I recall,
with some humor and business sense, you
only asked one thing: That we edit the
image to the Disneyland Orgy to include
a link to your site, saying a poster was
available for sale on your website.
PK: Oh yeah, that was a pure ad.
1
“An Impolite Interview With An Abortionist,”
The Realist #35, June 1962.
96
EP: The first ad to run in The Realist,
probably?
PK: Well, sure. (laughs) It was letting
people know the poster existed.
EP: In the ten years that the archive’s been
up, it’s enjoyed a lot of regular traffic and
is now referenced in many dissertations.
By the way, did you see the Washington
Post article linking to the archive, specifically
the LBJ story? 2
PK: Oh, yeah. I heard about that from
Harry Shearer. He sent me the link to
the article, where they refer to me as
an “obscure 1960s figure.” The subject
line of Harry’s email was “It’s official!”
and then in the message, a link to the
article and the words “you’re obscure!”
I laughed hysterically.
I think the LBJ piece (“The Parts Left
Out of the Kennedy Book,” The Realist
#74, May 1967) is still the most notorious
article; people remember it. Lewis Black
said he was fifteen when he read it and
said he was shocked! You know, because
the article was written as a seduction, in
a way. To the culmination, to the... what
do they call it in sex? The climax!
And then I published the anagram for
Nixon’s veep’s name, Spiro Agnew.
EP: “Grow a penis.” Do you remember
2
“Trump’s Presidency is Doomed,” The
Washington Post, January 16, 2017.
how that got published?
PK: It was originally a guy from LIFE. He’d
interviewed me, and mentioned some of
the staffers had seen Rosemary’s Baby,
where there’s an anagram moment with
Scrabble pieces, something to do with
witchcraft —
EP: “Steven Marcato”.
PK: Yeah. Staffers had discovered this joke
about the Vice President’s name, based
on that scene. They couldn’t use it in
LIFE, but it had to go somewhere. So, I
ran it in the four-page comic that Richard
Guindon and I did together. 3
EP: Both the LBJ piece and Rosemerica
comic clearly bend into surrealism. The
response of readers, delighted and infuriated,
had to be one of the best moments
of your life.
PK: Many many people believed [the LBJ
piece], even for just a moment. It was
something I’d learned from Joseph Heller,
when I interviewed him (Realist #39). I
asked about one of the patients in Catch-
22, who is in a veteran’s hospital. The
patient was wrapped up like a mummy,
fed through IV’s, excreting through tubes
— he was just a middleman for digestion.
I asked Heller, and he said, “Well you
know, it’s possible, but not probable.”
EP: “Possible but not probable” explains
these last fifteen months on Earth.
PK: Regarding the LBJ piece, there were
people who claimed to remember a photograph!
(laughs)
People who said they believed the
article, if only for a moment, included
Daniel Ellsberg, who released The Pentagon
Papers. He said the reason he believed
it, was because he just so much
wanted it to be true.
EP: Speaking of Ellsberg, and now Trump,
how do you feel about leaking?
PK: Well, I leak several times a day.
(Shared laughter)
EP: It’s very good for you.
PK: That’s bladder control.
EP: It’s funny that the Russian sex blackmail
was Trump having a urine party with
a bunch of hookers.
PK: That was a fake. But it became a
perfect image for comedians worldwide.
EP: But it’s like the LBJ issue — maybe it
will stick. People also remember The Disneyland
Orgy from the magazine. And the
wonderful FUCK COMMUNISM poster.
PK: You know, I use a walker, but I go to
the gym three times a week, to use the
treadmill. I had my FUCK COMMUNISM
t-shirt on, you know, the red white and
blue. As I was walking out, there was a
policeman who held the door open for
me. And he saw the t-shirt.
EP: Oh, god —
PK: He said, “Hey, that’s a great t-shirt!”
He took it literally!
EP: I know the poster was said to be the
perfect confluence of two banned terms.
PK: Kurt Vonnegut praised it for that.
EP: “Fuck” has kind of won, right? You
can say “Fuck” anything now, and it’s
fine. That is one experience I don’t have,
growing up when that word was so verboten.
I understand how saying “Fire” in
a crowded theater is illegal, but I don’t
have an understanding of a world where
1
“Roseamerica’s Baby,” The Realist #93,
August 1972.
saying “Fuck” could get your arrested.
How did Lenny Bruce work around it?
PK: He had to use a euphemism. He’d
have to say “frig.”
The first time I met Lenny, he came to
New York, and he called — because The
Realist was his favorite magazine.
EP: That had to feel great.
PK: It did. Steve Allen was the first subscriber.
He would give subscription gifts
to several friends, and Lenny was one
of them.
Lenny then sent a lot of subscriptions
to his friends. That’s how it started, and
how it grew — word of mouth — which
is better than advertising, because it’s
free and you’re getting it from someone
you know, an individual.
When I met Lenny for the first time,
I gave him an advance copy of an interview
with Dr Albert Ellis, a psychologist.
Lenny was reading and said “He used
the word [‘fuck’]!” I explained to him
that Ellis had a campaign that “fucking
was good” therefore, if you wanted to
say something unfriendly, you should
say “unfuck you”...
Lenny asked, “How does he get away
with this?” I told him, “The Supreme
Court said use of the word wasn’t obscene
in a magazine if it was a redeeming social
value, and no prurient interest.”
Lenny asked, “What’s that? Prurient?”
He went to his suitcase on his bed in the
hotel room. Inside was a huge unabridged
dictionary. At first, it said something like
“itching” — and Lenny asked, “Is this
something like a novelty store?”
EP: Where they sell the powder!
PK: Or the dribble glasses. But the second
Created in 1963 by Paul Krassner and John Francis Putnam, this poster was a staple of dorm rooms for decades. Kurt Vonnegut
called it “a miracle of compressed intelligence nearly as admirable for potent simplicity, in my opinion, as Einstein¹s e=mc 2 .”
97
definition was “arousal of sexuality.”
Lenny was performing that night at
Town Hall. He asked me to hand out
copies of The Realist, with the Ellis interview,
in front of the theater. From then
on, Lenny thought that his act would
be protected, because it had redeemable
social value. But that’s not the way
prosecutors felt about it.
EP: Right. The conspiracy theory I’ve
heard is that it’s because he took on the
Catholic Church.
PK: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely right. His
“Religions, Inc” piece got him in a lot
of trouble. The reason he got busted for
obscenity was there wasn’t a law against
blasphemy, but that’s what he was really
arrested for.
EP: You know when Scott Marshall and I
were putting together the Lenny Bruce
tribute in the Wilcock comic, we included
John’s experience with Lenny. You’re
in a few panels. It’s been fun to find opportunities
to include you in the comic
-- you’re in five scenes now.
I have sort of a funny agreement with
John: If he can’t recall the full story, or
dialogue, I can fill in the details.
PK: Oh (laughs) well that’s trusting.
EP: You both are very trusting people! He
couldn’t remember verbatim exchanges
with you from 1961. So, we gave the joke
from you to be “Lenny would be a big fan
of your couch, John.”
PK: That’s funny. When I saw that in your
comic, I remembered saying it! I remembered
something that didn’t happen. Now
I have something in common with Kellyanne
Conway.
It’s something I would have done. You
made up something real.
EP: Thank you. I only do that in a few
panels to keep everything glued together
as a story. Otherwise it’s just a bunch of
disconnected fragments.
PK: Too close to reality, then.
EP: How do you think Lenny would
respond to Trump?
PK: I think he would do it as a really high
form of satire. He would make Trump a
hero -- in the sense that he would take
a different approach. I’m saying that
because he did that about Adolf Eichmann,
the Nazi organizer. Lenny would
say “He was doing his job!” He would
just take an approach like that. Lenny
would “appreciate” the defined tragedy.
1
See The American Bystander #1, Dec. 2015.
I think Bill Maher’s show, February
17, was terrific. Lenny would have really
appreciated it. Just the same way Lenny
got serious sometimes, and the audience
would say, “Hey, you’re honest!”
instead of “Hey, you’re funny.” Maher’s
monologue that night was really beautiful.
Because he’s well informed, and he
couldn’t just do jokes about it. He talked
about the fascism. He talked about the
dangers. It was just brilliant presentation
of the seriousness of fascism in action.
EP: What do you think Abbie Hoffman
would do about Trump?
PK: Oh, I think he would do the same
thing as Maher. Abbie really had a sense of
humor that was spontaneous. And it was
based on being well informed. Bill Maher
was doing that. He was rabble-rousing.
He was trying to let people know how
serious it was.
EP: I can’t help but feel such sadness that
Abbie is gone. You mentioned Shepherd
as an influence, for me it’s Abbie, who
I regret never knowing personally. You
read his books and every page glows. He’s
such a wonderful soul and gifted writer.
Do you recall going to rallies with Abbie?
PK: I remember we had taken some acid
in his home, and got a call that some
Puerto Rican kids had gotten busted for
pot. Abbie said “Okay, we gotta go there.”
Show them the hippies respected the
kids who were busted. Because they were
Puerto Rican kids. So, as we’re walking
there Anita, Abbie’s wife at the time, mentioned
she was going to regurgitate from
the acid. And I said to her, “You can just
vomit over by the curb over there, and
we’ll stand around you.” That we’d hide
her. Abbie said, “Now that’s community!”
There were lots of things like that. We
saw a police car, full of four cops, two in
the front and two in the back, and Abbie
yelled, “You guys on a double date?”
I told him he reminded me of Lenny,
and he said, “Oh really? He’s my God!”
EP: That’s an amazing story, partly
because there’s no way you can talk like
that to police now without being confronted.
I have this terrible habit where
I thank cops. I got tackled once because
a cop thought I was someone else, and,
partly out of fear, I thanked him. I always
feel like an asshole when I do it, too.
PK: I did the same thing (laughs) when
they frisked me. They frisked the reporters
because they didn’t want the reporters
to have guns in court.
98
EP: Was this for the Harvey Milk trial?
PK: Yeah.
EP: During that trial, you coined the
phrase “The Twinkie Defense”. You’ve
done this a couple of times, creating an
expression or a term, that becomes a
permanent part of the language.
PK: I once started a list: Yippies, Twinkie
Defense, jilling off — that’s a woman
masturbating, instead of jacking off.
EP: “Soft-core porn,” you coined that.
PK: Yes.
EP: What do you think Robert Anton
Wilson would say about Trump?
PK: He would be very analytical about
him. You know, he would talk about the
insanity of it. He would just get to the
core of Trump. He’d be fascinated by it.
EP: He does like “mind fuckers.”
PK: Exactly, yeah. He would be a great
analyst of how we all have some narcissism
in us, but Trump is the king of — oh,
you know I’m doing now what you did —
when you made up what you think what
I would have said, there. And now I’m
saying what Robert ... what Bob Wilson
would say.
EP: But that’s totally correct, I think.
PK: But he would, because — there was
a European order of priests who got
married, or something like that. And I
gave Bob the assignment of writing about
that convention of the priests, as if he
was there. He loved doing that; he made
it seem real.
That was a very good form of his satire,
because once again, it was not only possible,
it was probable.
EP: What about Terry Southern? A lot
of people see The Magic Christian happening
right now with Trump — Trump
is living out that description of the book.
He’s “making it hot for them.”
PK: Terry Southern was — he put a lot
of words in italics when he wrote. And
he talked the same way. He talked with
italics.
EP: Maybe he’d italicize Trump. Finally,
how do you think George Carlin would
respond to Trump?
PK: He might make a list. George loved to
make lists. He could make a list of lies,
of Trump’s lies.
EP: Paul, this has been so good talking
with you. Any closing advice to Donald
Trump, if he’s reading?
PK: I got my philosophy from [the comic
strip] Mary Worth: “When in doubt, do
the kindest thing.”